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Gun Restrictions On Any Defcon is Stupid: Change My Mind


Poll for Change My Mind:  

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  1. 1. Do you agree with my statement?

    • Yes
      20
    • No
      22


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Welcome to Change My Mind #2!

Gun Restrictions On Any Defcon Is Stupid: Change My Mind

Please read the disclaimer and rules of the post below :)

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General Disclaimer: I am aware that many of the questions i raise will polarize the readers, and that is my aim. My aim however, is not to upset or bother anybody. I want to keep this discussion civil, where everybody is allowed to submit their own counter points, and try to change my mind. That is the point of the discussion, i have come with an open mind and i ask you all too also.

Rules of the post:

  • Keep it civilized, banter is fine but try to keep direct insults out of this discussion.
  • This is not an argument, do not gang on particular people, and keep it general.
  • You are allowed to disagree and this is the point of the post.
  • There are no winners and the idea is so i can see who thinks what about parts of the server.
  • Use common sense and keep down the toxicity

If these rules are broken excessively i will have the post locked, and nobody gets to have fun. Thank you for reading the rules, and i hope to see you below in the thread.

Today i present to you yet another long awaited installment of change my mind. I have been bouncing between servers over the past few months, some successful, some not, but in all of them, not a single one of them has a problem with guns on safety. This particularly struck me after the SK/RT told me to put mine away the other day, as i was so used to carrying around a gun whenever i felt like it. This lead to me thinking about whether or not this was reasonable, and it provoked the thought of why we actually weren't allowed weapons but some security regiments were.

I come before you today to present many pictures of proof and reasons of why this rule should be changed, and why you should support me. Following this sentence will be a few reasons upon why having a weapon out on any Defcon is reasonable.

1. An imperial star destroyer is primarily a military installation

Most of the personnel aboard our beloved Chimaera are part of the Military, Navy or ISB basic branches. In other words, it is considered a flying military base. This considered, shouldn't having a gun out on safety be considered normal? Usually when i write my arguments i try to think of anything to counter it, and the only thing i can think of is that usually in real life people don't just walk around with guns out which is a fair point, but remember this is not real life and it is a terrible reflection of it. IF you were going to bring that up, i scoured the internet for pictures of military bases around the world, and i don't think i found one where there wasn't somebody that wasn't holding a gun (Unless they were doing something else of course, Driving, Engineering, Refueling). Also a side note, last year my hotel in Paris was across from a military hospital of which there were armed guards outside. I'm not talking armed as in police armed i am talking about strapped with AUG rifles. If it is appropriate to have the military idling around in the middle of a capital city, i fail to see how we aren't even allowed a pistol or something.

180129130710-kabul-military-base-attack-1-exlarge-169.jpg.0b0f1051884aa649d2c9ecaa1f9ee1c1.jpg

A base in Kabul with military forces moving their equipment.

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A military installation in northern Syria which depicts US forces standing next to an APC.

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French military base in Mali.

2. Constant Attacks on Ship

I am not entirely sure if any of you guys noticed, but on the server we are in a savage civil war against a group of terrorists that constantly manage to board and attack our ship. I think due to this fact it is okay for everybody to be a LITTLE bit on edge. It just makes so much sense to be armed in anticipation of an attack. I need everybody to understand that we are on a military base in the middle of a war. By no means am i apart of the military so i don't know for sure but having a weapon on a military base, which is under constant threat of attack, during a war against terrorists known for quick sting attacks it just makes so much more sense to have a weapon out on safety, or even slung at your side.

3. FailRP?

I usually bring up some aspect of FailRP not because i think we should change the rules to account for immersion, but more of a way to put something into perspective. If we wanted to be fully failrp friendly, we would have to run to the armory/ bunks to grab a gun in the case of an attack. Where do we pull the guns from that we carry? I don't have PAC and i don't plan to get PAC, so it just looks like i am materializing guns out of nowhere. To put into a point of view, imagine if a military base in Afghanistan got attacked and all of the soldiers had to run back to a building to pick up a gun then run back out and then start shooting. They would either all be dead, or the attackers would have left. You can make your own judgement on this part, i am talking out my ass.

4. The background of every star wars movie/ piece of content EVER

This is going to be my favourite part. I am going to show you all that in MOST eras of history in starwars, aboard ships and bases there is ALWAYS personnel with guns.

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The Force Unleashed 1 and 2.

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The Phantom Menace.

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Attack of the Clones, where there are clones holding guns on kamino, a considered safe location for a clone trooper.

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Revenge of the Sith, where there isn't even a present threat in the galaxy.. the war ended.

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Rogue One. The death troopers on a military base, talking to some big scary imperial scientists. Yes, i know they are guards, but there is literally no reason for there to be a threat in this scene. Funnily enough, an attack does happen. JUST LIKE I WAS SAYING!

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A New Hope. Stormtroopers checking the tractor beam controls in a new hope.

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Empire Strikes Back. Stormtroopers just standing around behind a door on bespin.

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The Return of the Jedi. Literally the whole endor scene is a military base where there are storm troopers WITH weapons.

Image result for force awakens stormtrooper

Force awakens. On the thought to be un-attackable starkiller base. Are you seeing a trend?

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The Last Jedi. WHY DO THEY HAVE GUNS IF ITS A LOW ALARM LEVEL? BECAUSE WE'RE IN THE MILITARY!

I want to stress the points i have brought up today, and i hope you can bring some counter arguments. I have put forward everything that i can think of so i am looking for great discussion. Also there are a few things i would like to say to give a bit of background. I am a royal guard and i mostly don't have a gun to keep on safety, but i still feel like there is a lack of logical reasoning surrounding this rule, even if it doesn't affect me directly. I urge you to reply to the post rather than just answering the poll and lurking. If you are gonna disagree come back with something at least.

THANKYOU FOR READING, NOW GO AHEAD AND CHANGE MY MIND! :)

EDIT: I ACTUALLY FORGOT TO MENTION THIS SO MR @Cure HAS BEAT ME TO IT!

"As not all troopers, officers and other personnel need to have their weapon out all the time. In fact some instances can be found where Naval Officers are actually not allowed to have their weapons out such as when performing tasks on the Bridge."

I thought it would be a given, but yes, i am mostly saying that the rule should be changed within reason and i didn't want to specify areas that are considered sensitive. My thoughts are mostly based on the hallways and places you'd expect there to be people walking around normally (CL1 areas and the likes).

My previous installment (Climbswep is a bad thing to fail someone on)

 

Edited by Mord
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I thought I would post my opinion on the matter since you have provided me with that chance. There are several sides to this debate and neither is right or wrong. However, many of these arguments need to be fully explained and examined to improve the dialogue and discussion about the matter now and in the future. I want to make it clear before I continue that I remain neutral in this situation purely because I think that the benefits and the issues associated with what you have proposed are equal. Overall, I hope I am able to shed some light on my thoughts surrounding the matter and contribute to the discussion. 

Firstly, you have provided examples as to why troopers should always have their weapon out on safety even when the threat of an attack is not imminent or expected however, this entirely depends on the situation and/or task currently being completed by those troopers. As not all troopers, officers and other personnel need to have their weapon out all the time. In fact some instances can be found where Naval Officers are actually not allowed to have their weapons out such as when performing tasks on the Bridge. For example, in the most recent Thrawn Novel Thrawn and an ISB Operative are depicted arresting fellow Grand Admiral Savit for many reasons but one of those was because he used his weapon on the Bridge of an Imperial Star Destroyer without prior permission from a superior officer or during a time of threat to the Bridge. Put simply the time and place for the use of weapons on or off safety is entirely situational and personally the current system in which a superior such as Imperial High Command can order you to have your weapon on safety if necessary when performing a task works well. But I would like to see a loosening of this rule to include lower ranking personnel having the choice of having their weapon on safety when they deem necessary and allowing the troopers they command to do the same but if spotted by Shock or Riot using it inappropriately then they should still be subject to an Arrest. 

Secondly, DEFCON V is supposed to be in place when there is a highly unlikely chance that a military installation such as the Chimaera will be attacked in the near future. While, this is not always the case especially on the Server where events are scheduled regularly that constantly involve high rates of action. The out of character knowledge you posses regarding when the next scheduled event is going to occur may begin to influence when and where you decide you should keep your weapon at the ready. However, as you have pointed out that the Chimaera is in fact a military installation and is subject to attack on a regular basis from rebels and other enemies meaning that it would make sense to continue to carry your weapon out on safety constantly. Overall, as I have stated there are certainly two sides to the argument and neither can ever be right. 

Another factor to consider is that changing this rule to allow what you have suggested may in fact increase the level of accuracy in comparison to the films and the amount of roleplay generated from misuse and disorderly conduct that is bound to occur if the rule was to be changed. Not that it doesn't happen anyway on some occasions. While I am not a member of Shock or Riot and never have been it seems clear that sometimes there is not many Arrests taking place all the time and changing the rule would certainly mean that Shock or Riot would have to begin making decisions that don't normally have to be made and keeping a closer eye around the Star Destroyer to ensure the new rule is indeed enforced thus, increasing the amount of tasks they can complete. 

The final factor I would like to mention is the out of character temptation that can be felt by some players both new and old to break the rules both in character and out of character in regards to what they do with their weapons and I feel that this temptation may increase if all personnel are allowed to have their weapon out on safety at their discretion. However, that is the entire purpose of multiple security regiments and the staff team that work hard to ensure that SeriousRP takes place as much as possible. 

In conclusion, I hope that I was able to contribute to the discussion in a way that remained neutral but still highlighted the ups and downs associated with the proposal put forward by this post and I look forward to any and all replies that I may receive in the near future as I would love to continue this debate. 

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3 minutes ago, Cure said:

As not all troopers, officers and other personnel need to have their weapon out all the time. In fact some instances can be found where Naval Officers are actually not allowed to have their weapons out such as when performing tasks on the Bridge.

I honestly knew i had forgotten something. I am going to snip this in somewhere because i fully agree with you that there should still be restrictions, and not anarchy.

6 minutes ago, Cure said:

However, that is the entire purpose of multiple security regiments and the staff team that work hard to ensure that SeriousRP takes place as much as possible. 

YES YES YES YES YES

7 minutes ago, Cure said:

Overall, I hope I am able to shed some light on my thoughts surrounding the matter and contribute to the discussion. 

I have skipped over a large portion of your reply because i feel i can just say that i pretty much agree with all of it. I am going to quote some of your points in the post because i honestly don't know how i had such oversights. Thankyou cure for your contribution and sorry i couldn't disagree to make it a little more interesting.

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Arguably, the places you have shown to be is active war zones.

2 hours ago, Mord said:

Empire Strikes Back. Stormtroopers just standing around behind a door on bespin.

They be waiting for han solo

 

----

I agree however with point 3, there should be an armoury

 

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Just gonna plop this in here that I noticed a hefty chunk of people voting negatively on the poll above this post. I would just like to ask out of curiosity what prompted you to cast that vote as I, and I'm sure a few other are, curious.

(Specifically talking about @Twinkie, @John, @Wombatiacus, @Goliath and @Bailey, who voted no at the time of writing this)

Edited by Butcher232
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Just now, Butcher232 said:

Just gonna plop this in here that I noticed a hefty chunk of people voting negatively on the poll above this post. I would just like to ask out of curiosity what prompted you to cast that vote as I am curious.

(Specifically talking about @Twinkie, @John, @Wombatiacus, @Goliath and @Bailey, who voted no at the time of writing this)

Currently doing something and I'll be posting a longer one later.

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"Also a side note, last year my hotel in Paris was across from a military hospital of which there were armed guards outside."

2015 Paris attacks. 131 victims dead. They are armed because the threat is very real. If we are on an ISD, in roleplay we are unlikely to get attacked as much as we do. As a few others have stated, events are held to keep people interested, it's not a regular occurrence on a ship.

These troops are deployed on the ground, where they can be attacked from any angle. We are in a big ship, and i don't think i need to go into detail about the safety measures on a star destroyer.

A brief analysis of each picture:

Real world pictures:

1. A brief search shows an article "Taliban suicide blast kills 14 people, 145 injured". This is why they are armed.

2. A brief search shows a video "SAA clashes with militants in northern syria". This is why they are armed.

3. A brief search shows an article "sharp rise in numbers of children killed in Mali's deadly attacks". This is why they are armed.

In these real world examples, the threat is very real to them, near them. They are participating in an active war.

Before we continue, a brief snip from wookipedia on stormtroopers.

"Outside of combat and security details, stormtrooper officers wore black dress tunics, caps, and boots, as well as code cylinders, rank insignia plaques, officer's disks conform to the standards of the imperial navy"

Whilst off duty, stormtroopers on the battlestation were given luxuries such as access to recreation centers, restaurants, and bars which included the latest model of bartender droids. Holoscreens which displayed sports games or other entertainment were provided in the living quarters. There was no need to have a weapon out in their free time.

Star wars pictures:

1. Stormtroopers appear to be guarding. In this instance, they would be in their combat gear, with their weapon out.

2. These are droids. Furthermore, these are droids on a blockade ship.

3. These clones are in a training facility. This was a show of power, and of course they have their weapons out because of this. Clones were bred for one purpose. Imperials are not clones.

4. Revenge of the sith, escorting THE EMPEROR, on a planet which had just previously had two combatants.

5. Rogue one military base. If i remember correctly, they were on the base to confront a traitor. "one of you betrayed the empire. one of you has conspired with a pilot to send messages to the rebellion". Obviously they would have their weapons out as a show of force. Not only that, they are also guarding Director Krennic.

6. A new hope. Looks like a patrol. During a patrol you have your weapon out on safety.

7. Bespin, where Darth Vader was knew the rebels would be. Of course they have weapons.

8. You do know how important endor is right...?

9. The first order had their weapons out as it was a show of power. They were about to fire a superweapon. Military exercise. They were ON DUTY.

10. Military exercise. They were ON DUTY.

 

Each example you have listed shows the troopers having weapons out on safety for VALID REASONS, Just as in game, you have your weapon out whilst guarding, patrolling.

I completely understand where you're coming from, however i don't believe the best examples were used to get the point across. 

In conclusion: During ST free time, they should not be allowed weapons out.

 

That being said, love the concept of healthy debate within the server. 

Kind Regards,

Death.

Edited by Death
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So, I'm not going through all of those photos individually, but most of them are considered active war zones or the troopers are "on parade" which is a military term for standing at attention and waiting for briefing/debriefing in some cases, or in many cases just looking formal. If neither of these happened, they were either ambushing someone or guarding someone/some thing.

Now, the thing is, the reason I don't think we should be allowed to carry around guns whenever/wherever, is because, from a Server stand point, it makes it easier to just unholster your weapon and gun someone down, which no one on the Server should be doing unless they're gunning down someone who has done something wrong. From an RP stand point, carrying around a giant gun all the time can be hefty and tiring for most troopers, and when not patrolling and just walking around the ISD, which they mostly wouldn't be doing, and when doing would either be patrolling or chilling without their guns.

That's pretty much all I have to say on this, RP wise, doesn't make sense unless patrolling, on parade or preparing for a battle, server wise, it becomes a tool for minges to use in some cases, as well as, if it doesn't make sense in RP, it doesn't make sense Server wise.

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9 minutes ago, Death said:

9. The first order had their weapons out as it was a show of power. They were about to fire a superweapon. Military exercise. They were ON DUTY.

10. Military exercise. They were ON DUTY.

They were on parade, correct. Being on duty doesn't necessarily mean you've always got your weapon out, parade does.

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I like to think that DEFCON V is almost like "everyone is off duty". Walking around the Chimera could be seen as troopers not currently on duty just doing rudimentary tasks like playing chess, hauling cargo, getting sick, practicing their climb swep etc. Think of the Chimera as more of a home for the troopers, I do see the point of this post but in saying that you wouldn't walk around your home with a gun out 24/7 because 1. That's just odd 2. It takes effort and energy to hold a weapon 3. Makes it seem like your on duty which you probably aren't.

I think this post could easily rewritten "Use DEFCON IV more liberally". E.G As soon as any combat/mission is around the corner all troops come from their "off duty status" (DEFCON V) onto "duty status" (DEFCON IV).

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24 minutes ago, Ragetank said:

I think this post could easily rewritten "Use DEFCON IV more liberally". E.G As soon as any combat/mission is around the corner all troops come from their "off duty status" (DEFCON V) onto "duty status" (DEFCON IV).

This I can agree with.

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43 minutes ago, Death said:

They are participating in an active war.

So are we?

43 minutes ago, Death said:

1. Stormtroopers appear to be guarding. In this instance, they would be in their combat gear, with their weapon out.

2. These are droids. Furthermore, these are droids on a blockade ship.

3. These clones are in a training facility. This was a show of power, and of course they have their weapons out because of this. Clones were bred for one purpose. Imperials are not clones.

4. Revenge of the sith, escorting THE EMPEROR, on a planet which had just previously had two combatants.

5. Rogue one military base. If i remember correctly, they were on the base to confront a traitor. "one of you betrayed the empire. one of you has conspired with a pilot to send messages to the rebellion". Obviously they would have their weapons out as a show of force. Not only that, they are also guarding Director Krennic.

6. A new hope. Looks like a patrol. During a patrol you have your weapon out on safety.

7. Bespin, where Darth Vader was knew the rebels would be. Of course they have weapons.

8. You do know how important endor is right...?

9. The first order had their weapons out as it was a show of power. They were about to fire a superweapon. Military exercise. They were ON DUTY.

10. Military exercise. They were ON DUTY.

The point of the pictures just flew over your head. Like mach speed.

Regardless of the sh*tty pictures i found, find me one in the movies aboard an ISD or a battlestation where somebody ISN'T holding a gun. That was what i was trying to illustrate.

43 minutes ago, Death said:

Real world pictures:

1. A brief search shows an article "Taliban suicide blast kills 14 people, 145 injured". This is why they are armed.

2. A brief search shows a video "SAA clashes with militants in northern syria". This is why they are armed.

3. A brief search shows an article "sharp rise in numbers of children killed in Mali's deadly attacks". This is why they are armed.

In these real world examples, the threat is very real to them, near them. They are participating in an active war. 

Before we continue, a brief snip from wookipedia on stormtroopers.

4 hours ago, Mord said:

but remember this is not real life and it is a terrible reflection of it.

Again, if you put the galactic civil war into perspective, an ISD is a pretty close rendition of a military base that can be attacked and boarded. And with how often on-ships happen, i'd say its pretty common. I think you are failing to see that the rebels are considered terrorists to the empire and just because it is a little bit more difficult to draw a similarity between actual real life terrorist attacks and rebel attacks it does not mean they should be viewed similarly.

43 minutes ago, Death said:

In conclusion: During ST free time, they should not be allowed weapons out. 

Aha see this statement i like this because it allows me to bring up this: if we are gonna say that an ISD is like a military base in real life, at no time would anyone be banned from carrying a gun around unless there was a particular occasion like a ceremony or a visiting general or something. Just because people can be at east and enjoy leisure, doesn't mean that there should be a full ban on weapons.

43 minutes ago, Death said:

I completely understand where you're coming from, however i don't believe the best examples were used to get the point across

Yeah, i rushed and it shows.

43 minutes ago, Death said:

2015 Paris attacks. 131 victims dead. They are armed because the threat is very real. If we are on an ISD, in roleplay we are unlikely to get attacked as much as we do. As a few others have stated, events are held to keep people interested, it's not a regular occurrence on a ship.

In the last 7 days we have been attacked like what 10-15 times? In the last 7 days paris has been attacked 0 times. Everyone i saw walking around and exiting and entering that military hospital was absolutely strapped. I'd say the threat against the chimeara is pretty real (well i mean beyond the fact its a game :p)

Thanks for your response @Death i am glad you brought something.

After having some resistance i raise the question

WHY ARE WE THE ONLY ONES WITH THIS RULE? There are servers out there wildly more successful than IG that don't care. If you are all going to answer one thing please try answering this.

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26 minutes ago, Ragetank said:


I think this post could easily rewritten "Use DEFCON IV more liberally". E.G As soon as any combat/mission is around the corner all troops come from their "off duty status" (DEFCON V) onto "duty status" (DEFCON IV).

f**k. That's a great idea. It makes sense.

BUT the only problem i feel is that it will not be used like this even if the change is made. Like the navy will just continue using it how it's always been.

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19 minutes ago, Mord said:

f**k. That's a great idea. It makes sense.

BUT the only problem i feel is that it will not be used like this even if the change is made. Like the navy will just continue using it how it's always been.

Oh yeah 100% but atleast it clarifies the reason why most troops dont have their weapon out on DEFCON V

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2 hours ago, Ragetank said:

I think this post could easily rewritten "Use DEFCON IV more liberally". E.G As soon as any combat/mission is around the corner all troops come from their "off duty status" (DEFCON V) onto "duty status" (DEFCON IV).

 

1 hour ago, Mord said:

BUT the only problem i feel is that it will not be used like this even if the change is made. Like the navy will just continue using it how it's always been.

I could definitely take a look at this in more depth sometime in the future and make sure it may actually happen. 

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21 minutes ago, Cure said:

 

I could definitely take a look at this in more depth sometime in the future and make sure it may actually happen. 

:x:x:x:x:x:x:x

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As much as I like this idea and think it would look way, way better around the ship, I gotta say I don't think it makes sense in RP. Every photo and every scene that I personally have seen from the movies or TV shows, even the comics I've read, has troopers with weapons in hand. At those times, however, the troopers are either patrolling, guarding locations or escorting VIPs, conducting military operations, awaiting the arrival of VIPs (such as the arrival of the Emperor on the DS) or have been deployed in potentially hostile locations or highly important Imperial locations (Endor). The few times you see a trooper without a weapon, they're generally:

A) Higher ranking than the troopers accompanying them
B) Accompanied by armed troopers 

I think the big thing that's being overlooked is the troopers in the TV shows and movies don't have weapons off safety when they're off duty, but rather every instance of trooper we see in the movies/shows is ON duty. If they were off duty, I feel like they wouldn't be wearing their armor. They don't live in it.


Just my opinion, at the end of the day I could be dead wrong. I still think it'd look way better and make more sense in RP to have weapons on safety at all times rather than pulling them out of nowhere, but I don't think anyone's going to complain with "pulling that weapon from nowhere is failRP" when we have troopers running around with purple, blue or golden guns that are clearly not standard issue. +1 for DEFCON IV being used more around the ship, however. That to me would make alot of sense.

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I think a standard thing we could implement is whenever the Star Destroyer is located in an asteroid field, by a wrecked Star Destroyer, by Ilum or any other planet or in (in-RP) uncontrolled deep space territory, the DEFCON should be raised to IV. Since in those cases we're a single Star Destroyer in an uncontrolled environment, everybody aboard should be ready to respond any surprise attack (especially around asteroids as enemies could potentially hide behind the asteroids).

When the Star Destroyer is in controlled space, with the Seventh Fleet, or by the Death Star, there is of course no threat and it should remain at DEFCON V.

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I don’t particularly agree with having your guns out at all times, but I see where you are coming from for the sake of role play. As Bailey mentioned, the reason for me not agreeing with this is that it just makes the job of security regiments all the much harder, meaning anyone could gun down a load of people quickly and not be recognized preparing for it beforehand. Although this goes against role play, I kind of compare this situation closely to the reasoning for having different parts of lore from different eras on the server, the fact is we are a server not a real life situation so it’s for the sake of enjoyment.

Another thing to note is that we are just players on a server, with no real life training, and the consequences that we are threatened with have no impact on us in real life.

But looking at this from a role play perspective, I see where you are coming from, but I just don’t think we are able to considering we are a server and not everyone has the best intentions.

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